Lost power in heavy seas - which hull shape?

[kach22i]

Lost power in heavy seas - which hull shape?................. will a retractable keel help?

Set-up context:
Picture a flat bottom boat (planing/ sail or motor) which has lost power in heavy seas.

Comments/assumptions:
Going to heave up and down like a cork no matter what, right?

A) Add RIB-like buoyancy collar and you just keep yourself fom sinking, even when inverted (capsized), right?

B) Add a Retractable Keel and it gives you ONLY some "lateral" stability, right?

Question(s):
1. Does it matter if the craft has a mono V-Hull at the bow?

2. If at idle (like a life raft), would the best shape be all sides of the boat sloping down? Picture a cone pointing down.

[Pericles]

Lost power in heavy seas - which hull shape?.

Gunboat 62 with dagger boards up and streaming sea anchor from bow, well away from land, or sail down wind under bare mast streaming a drogue from the stern to slow the vessel. Serve cocktails and tasty snacks, whilst watching a movie. Wind generator still works, I assume? :D

http://www.deltayachtsbrokerage.com/news/YWorld_gb62.pdf

Pericles

[kach22i]

dagger boards up and streaming sea anchor from bow

I've never heard of "dagger boards" so I did a Google search, this is an odd fish.

http://home.att.net/~t.l.hansen/Brick_Construction.htm
http://home.att.net/~t.l.hansen/images/brickpics/brick64.jpg

These look huge!
http://chepog.wordpress.com/page/2/
http://chepog.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/both-sides-fitted.jpg
http://chepog.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/port-deck-2.jpg
http://chepog.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/ben-celebrates.jpg

DAGGERBOARDS VS. KEELS – WHICH IS BEST FOR ME?
by Phillip Berman
http://www.multihullcompany.com/Article/Daggerboards_vs._Keels
Dual daggerboards add about $30,000 to the construction cost of a 45 foot catamaran................yikes!

Daggerboard
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggerboard

Sounds and looks like a foil to me. What am I missing here?
.....................................................

On the other term:

Sea Anchor:
http://www.sea-anchors.com/



Definition: The term sea-anchor refers to the "parachute-style" anchor; but can also mean a tire, bucket, conical cone, or any drag designed to slow boat speed. The term "para-anchor" or parachute anchor specifically refers to the modern parachute style anchor deployed from the bow of the boat.

Application: Parachute sea anchors are used on large or small vessels including sail, power, charter, sport fisher, commercial seiner, mega yacht, coast guard cutter, life raft, skiff and dinghy.


http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2005/5183/index_toc.html
http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2005/5183/Figure7.gif
Figure 7. Tethered acoustic Doppler current profiler
boat with a sea anchor attached (from Environment
Canada, 2004). (Photograph by Clare Bowden,
Environment Canada.)

Parachutes Save a Yacht.....true story
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/parachutes/index.htm
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/parachutes/590.jpg
With the line now fully deployed, they watched fascinated by the little chutes they could see streaming aft for a hundred metres, drawing a line in the turbulent water. The affect was instant and dramatic, speed bled off the hull and within minutes the speed had fallen to just three knots. The steering became lighter and the vessel tracked in a straight line with no attempt at broaching.

A few minutes ago, they were riding a bucking bronco, but now the yacht was docile and controllable. It made such a difference that Al was able to re-engage the autopilot and watched as the sea passed harmlessly below the hull, with only the odd splash coming aboard. Compared to just an hour ago this was sheer bliss.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/parachutes/dwg.gif
The main advantage of the series drogue over the sea anchor is its ease of deployment and recovery and the fact that you can adjust your speed by allowing more or less of the little chutes to enter the water. However, there are not many reports of this type of drogue being used in anger so this true-story illustrates how it helped one family to survive what could have been a disaster.

I want to know more about dagger Baords.

I want to know more about the proposed streaming sea anchor from bow. Why "streaming", and why at the "bow"?

Interesting stuff, please tell me what you know or point me in the right direction.

Cheers, George/kach22i

[Pericles]

The English phrase, streaming a drogue or sea anchor means it follows behind a boat. If streamed from the bow it keeps the boat pointed upwind and slows the backward drift of the boat. There are a number of types.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LRfo_PZOApkC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=stream+a+drogue&source=web&ots=HVZFmCao91&sig=dWPcwTZUKZn5PSdFzSjrFZGVCmw

http://books.google.com/books?id=NB4uFQuUlnEC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=stream+a+drogue&source=web&ots=Pwj689cbrV&sig=RjP8PLZ5EbS6WPYXeg8JeEIGQ_I

As for dagger boards, the sites you list describe them very well. Foil is another name but it's too generalised a word, I think. There are hydrofoils, Bruce foils and centre boards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_foil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centreboard

The cost of dagger boards must be seen with respect to the large gain in performance. Gunboat 62 is a $2 million vessel. :D :D John Shuttleworth designed catamarans with only one dagger board in port hull.

"This design, like all my cruising designs uses only one retractable daggerboard in one hull. Some years ago I conducted a tank test to find out the validity of this idea, and the test showed that one board in one hull had less drag that one in each hull. The only difference was a loss in tacking angle of 1.5 degrees when the board was upwind. I believe this loss is mostly compensated for by the saving in weight of a board and case.

The daggerboard and rudder are both designed using NACA sections. The balanced rudders use a section that is tolerant to high angles of attack, while the daggerboard which is mostly at a maximum angle of attack 5 to 6 degrees, has a section which has lower drag and better lift to drag at 5 degrees than the rudder. The advantage of a daggerboard on a multihull, as opposed to a keel on a monohull, is that it does not have to be very low drag when going straight through the water, since it will be retracted when going downwind.

On this design I have included a shallow stub keel on each hull to protect the propellers of the twin engine installation. The rudders kick up so that the draft of the boat at full displacement is only 0.83 metre ( 2 ft 8 inches ) fully loaded."

http://www.john-shuttleworth.com/Articles/52AeroDesign.html

All the best,

Pericles

[masalai]

Many sensible ideas and thoughts have been demonstrated along with a few frivolous posts to add a bit of humour.

Regardless of the style (heavy/light, mono/cat/tri etc), sensible approach to seamanship and being prepared is not to be overlooked.

Avoid disastrous sea conditions whenever possible & retreat to a good bottle of your favourite booze and hide inside a vessel like a cork - literally. :D

[longliner45]

my computor is slow today,,so I didnt read everything ,,but the drogue is interseting,,,,I have used 3,,,5gallon buckets with the same effect,,,,,7 to one ratio works well,more scope the better to a piont ,also the lighter the boat the better ,,if you had a barrel of water and put a cork in it and shook it around ,,the cork bobs at the top,,,if you put a heavy piece of wood in the same barrel and shook it around the same way you will see it bobs and gets wet all over,also air tight compartments are great for unused area ,,if any ,,longliner,,its all in the design

[TeddyDiver]

I have used 3,,,5gallon buckets with the same effect,,,,,7 to one ratio works well,more scope the better to a piont ,also the lighter the boat the better
If using buckets make sure they are "reinforced" model. Just a bucket will eventually fail..
Light boats tend "rodeo" way too much. More ballast, raw water tanks etc makes it more comfy :D

[Pericles]

In the same way I would not trust the safety of any boat I owned to inadequate ground tackle (nothing but a Rocna) I would not venture out without other correct safety equipment such as a suitable drogue and a proper sea anchor. No lash ups for me.:D

The two extracts I linked to, name some products that have found favour with the boating community. Two observations "there is hardly a sail boat of any design that will lie quietly bow-on to the seas in a storm behind a sea anchor---"

Then "Multihulls will also lie peacefully to an unyielding sea anchor." :D :D :D

See paragraph headed PACK WITH CARE http://books.google.com/books?id=LRfo_PZOApkC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=stream+a+drogue&source=web&ots=HVZFmCao91&sig=dWPcwTZUKZn5PSdFzSjrFZGVCmw#PPA198,M1

Pericles

[kach22i]

Lots of good information, thanks guys.

[longliner45]

WHAT NO LASH UPS?dont sailors tie knots anymore?I rode many tropical depressions and a few hurricans out,,,,,with good old buckets tied to a rope,,,7 to 1 scope,,counting your freeboard,,,,,never had a bucket fail ,,,,cmon,,,,longliner,,,,,,,,,buy the way,,,,ever try bailing water out of a sinking boat ,,with a drogue?

[charmc]

John,

Maybe you commercial fishing guys have super strong buckets, but I've never seen one that is all that strong. I've jury rigged sea anchors, and made drogues. The multiple small drogue concept works. I'm not saying there aren't any good buckets, just that I haven't seen any.

If I were planning to spend weeks or months beyond sight of land, though, I think I'd want to have a purpose designed system with tons of good reference data. I can jury rig a good system if necessary, but if things really go to hell, I want to rely on something made by guys who are much better at it than I am.

[longliner45]

I see your point charlie,,,,but buckets are multi purpose ,,and with room on boats the way it is ,I personally have never had a bucket come apart,,and I have used them hard,,,Iv trusted my life to parachutes,,,and maybe even will buy a drogue,,,I also used nylon rope ,,it gives a little ,longliner

[PAR]

I would think the handles would give on the buckets in any rough go. I've had them go just full of paint.

The key to survival conditions Kach22i, is brains, tactics and knowing your vessel more then hull type, with or without daggers (or any appendages for that matter), sea anchors, etc.

When conditions deteriorate enough to warrant drastic steps on the boat and your butt, to insure or increase your likelihood of survival, you have several options.

Knowing what these are, when to employ them and how effective they'll be under a given set of conditions, requires experience, practice, knowledge of your boat, it's location and understanding the storm your in.

Tossing a drogue on a lee shore for example, is a great way to end up as the following morning's front page headline. There are things you can do, but just doing something generally isn't the best thing.

The best thing is keeping a cool head. This is key in all emergency situations and very difficult to do, especially maintain over a long period, such as during a storm with a broken boat.

I've been in some pretty nasty and scary situations, including a bad hull breach with a fire on board at the same time. You have to stay cool. Decision making is very challenging under these types of pressures, so this is where you must rely on muscle memory gained from practice.

Think I'm kidding? Try a MOB drill for the first time in 20 foot seas with 40 knot winds and see if you'll be successful at bringing that person back aboard (not likely). These drills seem unnecessary when you do them, but trust me folks, when you need them, you better have a clue about yourself, crew, procedures and equipment or people will die.

This is true of fire suppression, rigging failure, engine failure, hull breaches, collisions and all the things that can screw up your day.

Prepare yourself, crew, test procedures and equipment and insure they work with practice.

In short there's no simple answer, no one boat type, no single piece of gear or technique that can be the save all for your butt, especially if you've no-brained yourself into a "catastrophe spiral" (of which there is usually no escape). This catastrophe spiral is common among disaster investigations. It's found a cascade of multiple errors, compounding the events, cause an inescapable sequence to occur that ultimately deeds badly for those involved.

This is why professionals drill their crews, emergency organizations practice their techniques and the prudent skipper gets a clue before heading into deep water.

[charmc]

Well said. You expressed some of my thoughts, but more clearly. You're right; knowing your vessel intimately is more important than the particular type of hull.

Yup, when you find yourself in a true emergency situation, having good instincts and body memory to take over and begin the appropriate response immediately, despite the conscious mind's temporary paralysis while it goes through the "Holy sh_t" routine, can make the difference, literally, between living and dying.

[Pericles]

PAR,

Absolutely correct. Failure to plan is planning to fail.

Regards,

Pericles

[kach22i]

My experience in the open sea is ZERO, so I've learned a lot in this thread.

Days of my youth spent on the Rouge River and Detroit River, plus a little Great Lakes action and inland lake experience fishing has been enough to get me to thinking that there is much to learn, and much to respect when around water.

As some of you may know my thing is "hovercraft". Few watercraft are as flat bottomed as hovercraft, so you might see where I'm viewing this topic from. A hovercraft with retractable daggers and retractable keel, one day I'd like to build one.

As an FYI below are two hovercraft at sea stories. What you walk away with is that "off-power" and in rough seas, a hovercraft would not be the first choice in "hull shapes".

Story-1
The World's first rescue by Lifeboat of a hovercraft
http://www.rhyl.lifeboat.btinternet.co.uk/hovercraft.htm
(click link above for story and pictures)
...........................................................................

Story-2
Loss of 5 lives by rescue attempt
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/graham.alland/mypage2.htm
On the 4th March 1972 Hovertravels SR-N6 012 overturned off Southsea with a loss of 5 lives. The craft that runs between Southsea and the Isle of Wight was hit by a very large freak wave that turned it completely over about a mile offshore I was once again on "blood"...................

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/graham.alland/Fort.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/graham.alland/Beach.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/graham.alland/3ce29729.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/graham.alland/SRN6.jpg
The Hovercraft in happier times

[TeddyDiver]

My experience in the open sea is ZERO, so I've learned a lot in this thread
You ask about hull shapes and we talk about buckets:D

[charmc]

What you walk away with is that "off-power" and in rough seas, a hovercraft would not be the first choice in "hull shapes".

"Finding that there was nothing on the hovercraft to which he could make a line fast ..."

More than just hull shape, there seems to have been some basic marine issues neglected in early hovercraft designs. Designers thinking "aircraft" and neglecting "boat" aspects.

[kach22i]

"Finding that there was nothing on the hovercraft to which he could make a line fast ..."

More than just hull shape, there seems to have been some basic marine issues neglected in early hovercraft designs. Designers thinking "aircraft" and neglecting "boat" aspects.
I have tow connections on my small hovercraft (1989) and have used them three times on water (towed twice, once towed someone else) and they quite handy on land to grab on to.

[charmc]

Yup, you get it, George! Gotta have that boat stuff in the design if you're going to travel on water! :D

[kach22i]

UPDATE: 02/28/2008

Daggers and Keels.....retractable.....I had a vision of what that might look like, thinking of setting them at 45 degrees and doing both tasks at the same time.

Did I say that before?

Then I found this post by forum user Docker:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16015

Image alone:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11843&d=1172929062

Related images and text here:
http://www.rugludallur.com/index.php?id=28
http://www.rugludallur.com/typo3temp/pics/e071dbfb72.jpg

Good article and pictures:
http://www.aeroyacht.com/NEWS/Articles/daggerboards.htm
http://www.aeroyacht.com/NEWS/Articles/clip_image008.jpg

Around The World Of Sailing
http://www.torresen.com/sailing/content_archives/2004_11.php
http://www.torresen.com/sailing/Open-50-for-2006-2007.JPG
Canting keels which swing to windward to provide righting moment are superior to water ballast due to weight. When a boat ballasts itself with water it gains weight, getting more stable yet heavier.

I'm not really sure what this is:
http://www.projectsomewhere.com/2007/04/19/alinghi-has-a-bendy-keel/
http://www.projectsomewhere.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/bendykeel.jpg

Lifting Keel thread:
http://www.heymanyachtdesign.com/in3a.html

Article posted by Yipster:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5798