Why are marine alternators so darn $$$!

[ted655]

:( I'm shopping for a new alternator. Imagine my sticker shock.:eek:
35 amp, 55 amp, $500+ $$. Are ya'll kidding me? God help you if you have the nerve to want a high output unit. You will have to get a home mortgage..
I want to know WHY? Any manufactures I've researched seem to be shy about the quality of materials used. I'm suspicious that they are really not that far from automotive grade in type of materials used.
When I can buy a auto reman for $35 or a new for $75, it seems I am ahead to replace more often. Just how MUCH longer will a marine alternator outlast a auto grade? Hmmmm, divide $75 into $550 = 7. Auto grade will last 2yrs? So 7x2=14 yrs minimum.
I'm lucky in that my diesel doesn't require a special body type to mount.
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Anyway, I wouldn't care if I paid double or even triple BUT I need some good reasons to pay 7 times the price. Why?
Thanks,

[masalai]

Greedy bastards?

[ted655]

Yep!:D
I just read an article that indicated automotive alternators on diesels are fine, AS LONG AS, the only batteries charged by it is strictly a start battery. A auto alt will kill it's self trying to keep a bank of deep cycle batteries (house bank), charged up.
It's all in the difference between single regulated (auto) & double regulated (marine) outputs.
Since I only have the engine alternator hooked to start batteries, I can get by with an auto grade alternator.

[masalai]

All settled! Good to see I was NOT needed to supply further red herring directions. See Frosty's advice on a drinking binge for some of the noisier ones.

Seasonal salutations!

[PAR]

A lot depends on the manufacture and especially where you buy it.

If your engine is enclosed, then a marine alternator is a must. Otherwise a very loud boom will be heard after just a short amount of use (sparks in the alternator, setting the fuel vapors off). Don't laugh, it happens a lot and people get killed, burned and boats destroyed or heavily damaged. Also, automotive units will corrode up pretty fast, particularly in salt water.

Without one you will fail a survey and if your insurance company finds out, you'll be canceled until you change it. Don't even let the USCG see one installed.

What engine package are you employing? Some are a lot worse then others. An example would be an alternator for a late 90's Mercruiser 305/350 stern drive system, which runs about $200 at full retail (God people still pay that too). This is a new GM style one wire rig and a remanufactured would be around $100 (depending on pulley and output). The modular case Prestolite styles seem to be the worst around $400. So again, what's 'ya got in your boat? A Chrysler, Hitachi, Motorola/Prestolite, Mando, Delco (GM style) single or three wire or what?

[ted655]

it is a '84 volvo AQD40A (diesel). although enclosed, I'm not worried about diesel fumes. Doing the math, i seem to be able to replace an auto grade every 2 years to come up even on cost.:)
There is a saying, I was born at night, just not last night. 7 times the cost is NOT reflected in the quality of a Siearra alternator, nor a Volvo genuine parts alternator, or a Kelsey, or... etc. It seems they are all very close in price. Hmmmm?

[Frosty]

I would'nt worry about it. I would be slightly concerened if I had an enclosed petrol engine.

My very expensive Yanmars which are actually Toyota 1HD engines have full open alternators, I can see into it!!!!!! almost through it.

This is supposed to be a full marine motor.

A little bit of common sense is needed here.

[masalai]

Who said any of the rabid five - or more?, - had a little common sense? and are needed too? (well yes, we provide light entertainment and pearls of wisdom befitting our aged-benefits-gold-card, excess time to spare rendering community services, etc..) Oops again, realised wrong thread, sorry boss.

[ted655]

:P I like it when people worry about my welfare & take no offense.
In the middle of the boat ramp, Waweep marina, Lake Powell, AZ. is a burned out hulk of what was someones pride & joy. I saw it for the 1st. time 22 yrs ago & have never forgotten what gasoline fumes can do. That is why I have a diesel now.:)
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anyway, I just found this site.
http://www.amarket.com/mes3149M.htm
Not familiar with Mando, but it is more inline as far as price. $150. Thats resonable huh?

[Frosty]

Interesting about the burnt out hull. Do you know of another and how do you know it was ignited by some electrical spark from within the engine compartment.

I have never ever seen a small recrational boat burnt out ,I know not of one single one or ever seen one.

In the 50s 60s and 70s unmodified petrol car engines in small runabouts were all we had.

[Wynand N]

you pay a premium for one little word - "marine".

The other day I went to a boatshop to buy some marine grade stainless steel bolts and got the shock of my life.
Went to my local bolt & nut dealer and got the same bolts in 316L SS more than 3 times cheaper:D

[TollyWally]

volvo AQD40A
LOL! That explains part of your high price problem. The swedes do a fair job of engineering but are mighty proud of the spare parts. A fisherman I know replaced a perfectly running volvo, he was damned if he'd give them $1500.00 for a starter. He'd come to the end of his patience and was willing to start all over again with a cat rather than let the volvo boys bend him over again.

I've got a volvoized chevy and next time I swap risers I'm getting rid of the swedish manifolds and replacing the whole shooting match. Same reason as my friend.

[Frosty]

So will I .I am told by Yanmar to change the mixing elbow every 2 years . What for? its four years now and nothing is wrong with them.

And when I do I will not pay 1000 dollars either. Ille bloody well have one made up.

I would fit car alternator and not loose a wink of sleep over it.

[masalai]

The revolution has started, Who else is going to join this revolting band of merrier sailor men? Me for two!

[ted655]

Interesting about the burnt out hull. Do you know of another and how do you know it was ignited by some electrical spark from within the engine compartment.

I have never ever seen a small recreational boat burnt out ,I know not of one single one or ever seen one.

In the 50s 60s and 70s unmodified petrol car engines in small runabouts were all we had.
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I'm sure that when it happened, it was a big deal for the area. It looks to be a 16-18 foot runabout IO. Hard to tell, back end is shattered. BOOM! The marina acquired the remains, had a welder build a stand & put it on display where it gets the most attention. You cannot launch unless you go to one side or the other as you start down the huge ramp.
It has a professional lettered sign that says" I forgot to run my blower, BEFORE I started my engine". It's like a damn monument to stupidity. Every public marina launch ramp should have one. It DOES get your attention, just when it matters most. By having to dodge it every time we launched, we never got used to it being there, like you do a sign that sits off to the side.
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I'm stuck with the Volvo guys, I'll have to work around that fact. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat.:D

[Ike]

Why are marine alternators so darn $$$!


Two reasons.

1. They are made for marine use, heavier duty, ignition protected.

2. A few hundred thousand are made each year as opposed to automotive alternators, where 10's of millions are made each year. It's the old supply and demand thing. Volume is inversely proportional to price. High volume low price, low volume HIGH PRICE!

It's that simple. no mystery here.

[ted655]

=======" 1. They are made for marine use, heavier duty, ignition protected." =====
I can buy 14 yrs worth of auto grade and I don't need sheided parts.
I'm taking my marbles & going home, I aint playing their stupid game.:D

[Frosty]

Ignition protected?? You mean it wont spark?

Dynamos were a bit iffy they had commutators and not slip rings . The brushed would spark as thet transfered from segment to segment and full power came through the brush .

An alternator has slip rings which mean constant contact,--unlikely to spark. and only exiter current goes trough the rings.

Im fitting car stuff and to hell with it.

Try setting fire to some diesel?? by flashing two wires together.

After 6 months come back and tell us how you got on.

[Ike]

183.410 - Ignition Protection

(a) Each electrical component must not ignite a propane gas and air mixture that is 4.25 to 5.25 percent propane gas by volume surrounding the electrical component when it is operated at each of its manufacturer rated voltages and current loadings, unless it is isolated from gasoline fuel sources, such as engines, and valves, connections, or other fittings in vent lines, fill lines, distribution lines or on fuel tanks, in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section.

It doesn't necessarily mean it won't create a spark. Most ignition protected alternators, starters and distributors achieve this by either sealing up the device or putting flame screens (just like a flame arrestor) over the openings.

Diesel power vessels are not required by the Coast Guard to have ignition protected components. I was just explaining why these things are so expensive. It's simple economics. If you make millions of the same item the price drops dramatically. If you only make a few (relative to millions) the unit price is much higher.

For instance, when GPS first came out the units cost tens of thousands of dollars. Only the military could afford them. Now you can buy a GPS unit at Wal-Mart for about 100 bucks because they are now made and sold by the millions.

There are about 100,000 diesel powered boats sold in the US every year. Worldwide maybe double that. How many automotive engines are sold? Millions and millions. So the economies of scale apply.

Anyway, Merry Christmas, Happy New year. Enjoy yourself!

[longliner45]

personally,I think propane on boats is a accident waiting to happen,,,boats constantly flex ,,losening fittings,,salt air ,,electralisis,,,,,and you name it ,,,,for me diesal ,,sail and alcohal,,,,,for the stove of coarse,,,I never sail or drive drunk,,, its just plain stuipid,I would like to see the states in the next year or so about explosions caused by propane,,longliner

[TeddyDiver]

.I'm stuck with the Volvo guys, I'll have to work around that fact.
http://www.drevia.se/reserv.html Why not to buy directly from sweden. with http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Main_Page it's easier to translate..

[ted655]

Thanks Teddy, but the rate of exchange between the $$ and Euro prevents any bargains.
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I get Ike's point & he's right, but the WIDE difference in price is still out of proportion to materials. Twice the $$, three times the $$, NOT 7 times! Phooey on them.:P
.
Propane on board is NOT why they use propane to tesr with. The reasoning is; IF it's safe under these standards, THEN, it is most certainly safe with other, less volatile fuels. The test could be called "The extreme, most unlikely" test.
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I had a great Christmas. I got a big retrieval magnet. Now I can get ALL the tools I have dropped overboard!:D

[Kay9]

Hey! Can I borrow your magnet.

Merry Christmas

[Wynand N]

So the economies of scale apply....

Ike, maybe to a limited degree. Alternators are made by big companies eg, Bosch, Lucas and the likes.
My question, what does it cost them to modify an alternator to marine specs? They do make millions run of the mill alternators and to apply an extra coat/s of isolating agent to the windings etc, perhaps fit an spark arrestor screen wont cost the world - a few $$ perhaps.

Being in the boat building business for quite a while (retired and back again) I had found that you do pay more when the word "Marine" is mentioned. It's all about hype - boating in general is a rich man's world (the more they pay, more to brag about to their friends) and priced accordingly and unfortunately, it is the real sailors amongst us that get bitten. Most yachts - sail and power - that get built, spend most of their time in a marina and are show pieces for their client's wealth.

Earlier in this thread I used the example of stainless steel bolts I bought. This would shed a light on pricing. For instance, when these bolts were made, they were not being created on a separate manufacturing line purely intended for marine use, nope, they are all mass produced and then send of to distributors.
ABC Bolt & Nut receive a few and price them $2 apiece, XYZ Marine receive the same and being a MARINE shop, charges $7 for they same bolt. It is not about scale of economics, rather a ripoff of the poor in a rich man's world....

And I can use many other examples, actually, everything on a boat applies. Plywood is another prime example; many exterior grade ply is just as good and may I be so bold to say that in some cases even better, and is perfect for interior furniture in a sail boat. Just add that sticker that say "Marine" and see what happens to the price:!:

Finally, my late father was a toolmaker at Nissan and at the time they made panel pressings for BMW, Mercedes and VW as well. His favorite panel tools to make - Mercedes Benz. According to my old man they had the easiest spec and their tolerances favored a blind man. That shows on all the older Mercs if you look at the shutlines and panel gaps....But you pay a premuim for the brand name. My dad alway said, how much more does it cost to build a similar sized class Merc compared to a Nissan Maxima? Not three times the price premium the Merc commands at the show rooms. Same with marine products.

The Iceman has the right attitude and more of us must say to the marine suppliers "screw you" and go elsewhere and save some hard earned cash

[CDK]

Of course real marine alternators do exist! Cast iron, triple belt pulley, totally closed and 48 Volts of course, never with a built-in regulator.
Anything else is an automotive product, painted in a real marine color (black?), with -sometimes- a spark arrestor mesh added to one side. No extra isolation, no waterproofing, always a marine price tag.
Electricity is magic for most people, so the are inclined to believe fairytales.

[Ike]

CDK, what? electricity isn't magic?? Why, that's what I used to tell everybody who asked me how my radar worked. Magically, mystically, wonderfully electronically!

Propane is just the means of testing. It has nothing to do with propane systems on boats, which as you pointed out can be damn dangerous. That's why there are very specific standards for propane systems, and why for many years the Coast Guard did not allow propane on vessels carrying passengers for hire.

Magnets are wonderful things. They're magic too.

Happy New Year

[masalai]

I especially find amusing the "magic of marketers", that they manage to present products with such obviously exorbitant pricing and people are actually buying same!!!

[ted655]

Looks like I'm going with a $140 "marine" (ha ha) Delco. here's the link.
http://marine-alternator.com/altvolv.htm
Seems there is dis-satisfaction out there.
http://www.amarket.com/imdc60.htm

[CDK]

Wise decision!
If the Delco needs an alternator light and your dashboard doesn't have that, use a 100 ohms resistor between the DF terminal and Ignition+.

Happy new year...

[TeddyDiver]

CDK, what? electricity isn't magic?? Why, that's what I used to tell everybody who asked me how my radar worked. Magically, mystically, wonderfully electronically!
I've heard from a retired magician it's form of "holy smoke" keeps electrics running. When it escapes, it's visible smoke, and the component won't work anymore...

[BillyDoc]

You guys might want to consider a brushless alternator like this one: www.delcoremy.com/pdfs/service_manuals/current/1G-500.pdf. No brushes, no sparks, and damn little to corrode in the internal workings. The 33SI puts out 135 amps and costs about $270 for a remanufactured unit, and (if memory serves) something like $422 for a new unit.

The only differences between alternators that I can see is their design voltage (12, 24, 28, 48 . . .) how they physically mount to the motor and how much power they take to turn. It definitely takes more horsepower to turn a 135 amp alternator than a 55 amp one (specifically, 135 amps at 14 volts will require a bit over 2.5 horsepower, and 55 amps at 14 volts will require a bit over one.) With the regulator built in (as in this case) the alternator shouldn't mind charging "marine" batteries any more than any other kind. Assuming they are the usual lead-acid sort of technology. And as for ruining the alternator with too much load . . . I don't believe it. Any engineer that didn't include thermal protection in his design is an idiot, and I doubt anything as refined as a simple alternator regulator would have overlooked that little detail. Thermal protection means that when the unit gets too hot, the current is backed off. It's very simple to do this.

Anyway, it's a thought.

BillyDoc

[longliner45]

hey billy

[captaintrue]

An alternator with low friction takes less power to turn therefore it could take less power to turn one alternator for the same output vs another. Rewinding the alternator can cause the generation of more power for the same RPM. The way an alternator works is quite simple. Most alternators can likely generate far more power than they are advertised or rated for because it the regulators that deal with this. The alternator can maybe put out more AMPS or VOLTS but the regulator might take only so much and let the rest go bye-bye in the form of heat.

If you close up an alternator, chances are you'll need to install some heat sinks.

But seriously, it might not hurt to get a copy of ALTERNATOR SECRETS by Lindsay publications. They really arent that complicated. And the notion of they make more automotive alternators then marine alternators so the price is more is kinda crippled logic. Alternators are alternators. Closing it up might mean making the exterior out of material that is better able to conduct heat.

If Volvo is charging $1500 for an alternator its probably: 1) cos they can, 2) nearly if not over 50% of the price is IMHO probably warranty, 3) the extra engineering that has to go to take a 'regular' alternator and make it marine, 4) 20% of the price is probably at least just cos it says 'marine'.

To prevent salt water problems: 1) you can coat the exterior, 2) you can close it up and provide a means of adequate heat dissipation i.e. eat sinks, fans.

Hah and on a diesel! If its a gasoline based engine yeah you dont want the entire engine compartment enclosed--that's just ignoring the fact that an car engine compartment is basically a chemistry laboratory and a power plant all in one--that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

Think folks: even car engines arent fully enclosed they have grills and underbodies and a means for vaports to escape through nooks and crannies. Its not all that extremely complicated. You just have to look at things with your eyes open. The prospect of the compartment being flooded with water isnt a bad thing to consider. Consider that its not that uncommon to travel down a road in a car and hit a puddle and stir up all kinds of water up into the engine compartment and even flood the spark plugs or alternator and so forth. Consider that MAGNET WIRE is just like kinda sorta maybe coated with enamel to start with--you're not likely going to get the magnet wire rusted any ways--and if you're paranoid just take the thing apart and coat it with some extra varnish.

Even auto alternators have to deal with humidity/moisture/dew/frost. $1500 for an alternator --yeah 1/2 is probably warranty, 20% is probably just "it says marine". If its made of heavier metals than cheap low--heat-conducting alloys then the shipping cost might go up and show up in the price. Enclosing the thing and adding extra fins for heat sinks or the like might add to the weight and engineering/material costs.

Triple pulley? Oh yeahh thats such an exotic part--only on Mars right?

[ted655]

:D Looks like we are into the "academics" of alternators. Most of the "reasons & arguments" FOR marine grade alternators don't hold true upon close scrutiny. It boils down to 2 items really. 1. The screen inside and 2. The 2 stage regulator that will allow more than "start" only batteries to become fully charged. The rest is.... Hog Wash, as my granny would say.
Even given the above 2 design items, this site reveals the reaming we all take IF we don't shop around. "Aftermarket Marine"
Sailors with sore butts, quit bending over and unite! :)

[captaintrue]

Good point. Regulators arent that complicated as far as electronics go. These kinds of situations with overpriced goods are just maybe opportunities to learn to do what someone else is doing for you for a steep premium.

Oh and just FYI, here's a DIY homemade alternator for marine use (i.e. hydroelectric power): http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html

How to keep water out? Note the how parts are 'cast' in resin or the like. Hint: guitar pickups (coils) are sometimes potted in wax. As stated above, the magnet wire is already coated in enamel because the wires come in contact with each other and one doesnt want them shorting one another out in this kind of device--suitable varnish works too.

[Frosty]

Yawwwn,---sigh--- you guys can spend what you want. I am fitting automotive and wont loose a wink of yawnnnZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ