Best surface Drive for Marine diesel?

[wiggler4490]

Trying to find a good steerable, trimmable surface drive that can handle 500-600hp 1000-1200lbs torque yet affordable, thanks

[RANCHI OTTO]

ZF or Arneson

[masalai]

or even Levi. simple, robust, made of stainless steel & proven (I think) also a member in Boat Design Forum.

[wiggler4490]

Anyone have ideas of costs between Levi, Arnoson,Zf for 500hp, 1,000lbs torque

[masalai]

http://www.levidrives.com/drives280.html & on top right hand side is "contact us" use this as quotes rely on individual manufactury for your specific application. (made to meet your configuration/need) This is individual professional operation, but very helpful if you have done your homework/research

Also on this site at http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/index.php/cat/528 , this set relates more to smaller applications. see the website & have a good and careful read. Got the runs on the board.

[Frosty]

Your decision is more simple than you think. If the boat lives in a marina then you can not use Arneson or any other system with exposed hydraulics. The fouling of rams and hydraulics would be a constant daily clean up.

There are other agricultural types more suited to the marine environment.

Dont skimp on size like I did,-- put the biggest damn props you can get on the boat. If you can get prop slip down then surface props are a good all rounder.

[Steve H]

Your decision is more simple than you think. If the boat lives in a marina then you can not use Arneson or any other system with exposed hydraulics. The fouling of rams and hydraulics would be a constant daily clean up.

There are other agricultural types more suited to the marine environment.

Dont skimp on size like I did,-- put the biggest damn props you can get on the boat. If you can get prop slip down then surface props are a good all rounder.



I own a 42' sportfish with Arnesons. It comes out of the water once a year if it needs it or not. I use it in salt and fresh. This is a fact that is coming from someone who actually owns a set. I have had to reseal one trim ram a few years ago and thats it so far. I have never seen nor heard from any reliable source that Arnesons were that much trouble. Most of the larger ones (#8s and larger) are made of bronze including the rams. Mine are the old 1720's that have been out of production for a long time and are still going strong. The only downfall they have is the propellers. They are very expensive and hard to get dialed in. But I think this is true with any surface drive.

Steve

[Frosty]

Very Interesting,--How do you keep the hydraulic rams clean of barnacles so they don't rip the seals to bits?

Do you antifoul all your hydraulics?

[masalai]

No Frosty, read what the man says. His experience is irrelevant, takes it out of salt water to give it a bath in deterginated fresh water. - the fresh water there kills nearly everything including barni-calls. Also the water freezes so out comes the boat anyway. Lucky to be in the water what with the political polution etc.

[Steve H]

Very Interesting,--How do you keep the hydraulic rams clean of barnacles so they don't rip the seals to bits?

Do you antifoul all your hydraulics?

If the boat is going to be in moored in salt for an extended time, I will raise the drives all the way and turn the wheel to port. This keeps all rams in the retracted position. I think that even this is overkill. The rams are all stainless except for some fittings that are brass or bronze. So no I don't anifoul them. The water here is relatively cool. Barnacles are very slow to attach, once a year haulout is plenty.

Steve

[Steve H]

No Frosty, read what the man says. His experience is irrelevant, takes it out of salt water to give it a bath in deterginated fresh water. - the fresh water there kills nearly everything including barni-calls. Also the water freezes so out comes the boat anyway. Lucky to be in the water what with the political polution etc.

Irrelevant? As a person who has first hand knowlege gained from actual ownership, maintenence, and operation of these drives my opinion is clearly relevant.
Boat is moored wet 24\7 365 days per year


Deterginated fresh water?
Freezing water?

What are you talking about?

Political polution? Still scratching my head on that one.


Dude-put down the pipe and get some rest.

Steve

[masalai]

Just throwing another red herring in the mix as the thread seemed to be a bit anal. (going no where fast in the direction where knowledge could be derived)

To indicate that the water was usually coldish & drives were lifted out to protect the hydraulics was very appropriate, Thanks for that.

[Frosty]

Thats interesting--the hydraulic rams I mean being on the same side.

If you have counter rotation then as you are aware with actually owning some that side walk on surface props is tremendous. The steering rams should be in compression meaning one ram one one of your legs should be on the other side. Have you a mechanical tie bar or hydraulic?

Interesting though, The rams must be double action?

I will look into this.

[Rik]

Very Interesting,--How do you keep the hydraulic rams clean of barnacles so they don't rip the seals to bits?

Do you antifoul all your hydraulics?

Can you explain your experience with your theory?

There are thousands upon thousands of boats that are in the salt water full time in warm water, cold water, fresh water, salt water, brackish water, etc. and the theory you seem stuck on does not seem to be showing itself.

Possibly, I say possibly, they meaning Arneson do not have this problem?

Also, I belive that a mechanical tie bar assembly is the norm on an Arneson don't you?

[Frosty]

Rik , Your right there are thousands and thousands of boats using gallons and gallons of antifouling to stop millions and millions of little barnacles sticking to boaty bits.

If you in your experience have found a way around this billion dollar problem then please share you expertise.

You think that the barnacles recognise an Arneson and dont stick to it ,--Mmm interesting theory.

Yes a mechanical tie bar is normal -I just wondered what he had.

[Rik]

Once again, do you have any experience with your hypothesis?

I never said there was any magic rather that the problem you are raising a red flag up for is not present most likely due to the design.


You seem to be singularly stuck on "barnacles on a shaft", rather than performance of the product and the performance of the boat with the product.

A little thing called a seal scrapper eliminates this issue you seem to so desperately hold to. All the other external hydraulic cylinders in the marine environment have it as well. Nothing new or special.

[Frosty]

So now we get to the truth. Suggesting that Arneson dont have this problem,!!!!! Common Rik I new you were pulling my leg.

And all this time you scrape them off like every body else.

A bit more than once a year too eh Rik?

More like every time you use it or the seal will be ripped by the barnacles.

Surface props need to be clean ,--- even to a shiny surface to work well.

[masalai]

Well done Frosty, Experience always wins over rash theoretical viewpoints.

Don't mind me I am just the red herring deliverer.

[Rik]

I don't think you are getting it.

A scraper is a seal scraper that is made in the cylinder that mechanically scrapes the cylinder shaft when it moves in/out.

Not scrapping it by hand.

Sorry for the confusion

I guess underwater propellers don't have marine growth on them. Oh, that's right, all boats at rest have under water propeller.

[Frosty]

Yes your right again Rik the propellors are under the boat and in the nasty water. But your wrong about marine growth.

Marine propelers do get growth on them These are nasty creepy things that stick like jam to a blanket and they dont want to come off.

If you don't scrape them off the boat wont go very fast,its a real bummer and every where in the world has them. Im sorry to say even in California,-- Is that America?

Thats where Micky mouse lives is'nt it Rik?

[Rik]

Your right Frosty.

Barnacles, marine growth and their attraction is solely a problem for Arneson Surface Drives.

According to you, barnacles do not grow on submerged propellers, marine growth does not exist on other propulsion devices. No, it is a problem totally isolated to Arneson Surface Drives.

Yes Disney Land is in California and to your benefit so is fantasy land.

Please take a look at cylinder designs. Maybe you will start to understand the solution to your problem.

[masalai]

Jeeees Ric, Don't be such a pontificating p***k :P That was not said, suggest you read posts again, and consider English is often used "tongue-in-cheek" which should be obvious to all but the most stupid and self important dolts. The man speaks from a position of experience and competence having designed & built his own surface drive system for his boat. Evidence & photographs are on this net.

[longliner45]

while we are off tread ,,I have a ssteel rudder and other accessores below the waterline( new build not wet yet)do barnicals grow on ss? I intended to bottom paint the rudder and oter stuff,longliner

[masalai]

Longie, I can't recall seeing anything they don't grow on if they can latch (not moving too fast)

[longliner45]

I missunderstood post 10 here,,just a glimmer of hope,,,,,,,dashed against the rocks,,thanks masalai

[Frosty]

Longliner --they love stainless steel. Trouble is stainless is a bit more complicated to paint. Ive tried all kinds of primers unsuccesfully.

Mas dont worry about Rik he does'nt read well-- maybe dislexic septic.

Ive tried typing very slowly for him but he still gets it arse about elbow.

[masalai]

Frosty, Cleaned glasses, now I see it all clearly, and I thought it was a typing/talking dick (Dik) :D :P? I've even seen barnacles on living skin. Whales - dick!

[Rik]

You can try to bash all you like, I am just stating facts, not bias.

I TRIED to explain it, nothing personal but at some point you have to see the light and prove your point or stop banging your head against the wall.

The question on this thread was one thing, some have given their opinion, biased at that, and I have just tried to clear the facts up.

Frosty, let’s see a photo of your drive.

[Frosty]

Not interested.

[masalai]

Ahhh See de lite, Ah see de lite. De clouds is fallin. De ocean is up! I see blew up! lordie lord. Ah is afraid nau!

Hay Frosty, In de sailin days wen we used to chase dem wales wid arm powa. You remember seein dem wales all coverd wid barnicles wen dey sound? Ah does.

He wants a picture of that! & youre strong arm afta eatin spinach!

[Rik]

Come on Frosty.

Let's see what you have made.

Can someone help out Frosty?

[masalai]

Read his postings, its there

[Frosty]

Ok Rik ille bite ,--just for you.

Oh Rik can we see some photos of your boat please.

How old are you Rik? about 8 years old.

Common show us all a picture of your dads boat and tell us its yours.

Posted is the latest attempt,this can reach speeds of 8KTS

[Rik]

Ok Rik ille bite ,--just for you.

Oh Rik can we see some photos of your boat please.

How old are you Rik? about 8 years old.

Common show us all a picture of your dads boat and tell us its yours.

Posted is the latest attempt,this can reach speeds of 8KTS

Okay, see attached photo, no b.s., not games, no hating upon others products and sorry, it is not my daddy's boat.

Here is a video of the boat running. http://media.putfile.com/Skater-haulin-azz

Nice photo of yours outdrive

Here is a link to my web site. www.arneson-industries.com

[Rik]

I took some more time and re-sized a photo so that it can be uploaded onto this web site.

[Rik]

Read his postings, its there

I would, but look at his post count. That would take too long.

Be a Friend and help him out.

[masalai]

Don't be so lazy, you don't seem to be who you claim, else you wouldn't be asking such questions & you would know "Frostys boat".

[Rik]

I have not been the hater here. I was stating facts and "Frosty" was offering conjecture on his opinion that he did not back up with any proof. Essentially he was bad mouthing, from what you claim, is a competitors product.

I offered who I am, not that I have to prove anymore than I have. I have not called anyone a child, nor insulted anyone. So I do not see what the problem is other than I do not go along with unsubstantiated opinions.

Sorry, I do not know who Frosty is nor do I know his boat.

Why is it that no one will come forward with it?

Do I have to spend an hour and find his post?

[Rik]

Found it.

A Levi copy.



http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2736&d=1110349158

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2737&d=1110349189

[masalai]

Nothing like it (Levi drive - that is)

[Frosty]

Lovely boat Rik Fantastic--

[Rik]

Thanks Frosty, I like your cat too, sleek lines.

[longliner45]

when are you two getting married,,,?I would like a formal invite...I will supplie a ton of milwaukees best light,,,longliner

[masalai]

Jeees Longie, . . Is it spring or something? . . I can recall a similar suggestion not so long ago? I know! . . You are a matchmaker looking for some work/revenue from supplying the ceremonials :D :D

If not, you don't need an excuse to drink up. . . . . See the Nike image somewhere in this forum (random?)

[Frosty]

I never go out with strange men --and Rik definately falls into that catagory.

We have nothing in common, his boat is a crumpet catcher and does little else. Quick blast across the bay anoying as many people as possible after yet another stop at the gas barge.

Once the chicks get out at the end of the 5 minute trip they see his AMC pacer and loose enthusiasm.

Then they walk over to my boat for gin and tonics with little umbrellas on the aft deck.

I get a lot of chick fallout from these James Bond wanna be's.

[masalai]

Frosty, if you are taking your quinine by tablet, then try the small green coconut water instead of tonic water with your gin (at least 50/50 but more gin the better & sit the glass in ice so the gin doesn't get diluted by putting the ice IN the glass.)

You know, the coconut where the meat is still gelatinous & can be eaten by OLD people.

Vegemite & oysters is as good as v....a. (that american health pill)

[longliner45]

[QUOTE=Frosty;177628]I never go out with strange men --and Rik definately falls into that catagory.

We have nothing in common, his boat is a crumpet catcher and does little else. Quick blast across the bay anoying as many people as possible after yet another stop at the gas barge.

perhaps he only anoys people while on the water,,,,,but you sir ,,are the best I have ever seen,,,,longliner

[Rik]

when are you two getting married,,,?I would like a formal invite...I will supplie a ton of milwaukees best light,,,longliner

Sorry Longlinger I'm no sailor, besides I think Frosty and Masalai are already married.

They definetly hold each others back way too tight.:rolleyes:

As for boating Frosty, your like all the the boats out there always getting passed by a boat with Arnesons.:D I'm sure by now you are used to it. Also, You'd need a lot of Viag ra and Geritol to hang with my girls. They play hard.

[masalai]

Oh rik . . , I am soo disappointed in you . . , here I was defending your virginity, only to hear that you are a self confessed pretend gigolo . . . Just like in the Hollywood B cinema, lad, that level of pretend. - - As Frosty said, - - all pis & wind, - - across the bay, see you for what you are, - - then join the old fella who claims to satisfy all your disappointed girl friends.

[Frosty]

Rik-Rik-Rik---dont you know women are attracted to an older more mature man. Stable, slightly greying and distinguished,-- a waxed mustache and of course a British accent. Look at the avatar,---can you compete with that?

Thanks for the offer of the -v1agra,-- do you keep a large supply?

Never needed it actually.

Ille bet you have one of those mock Porches made out of an old VW with RIK on the windscreen.

[masalai]

Absolutely P.O.S.H. bang up there what!, A broadside from their port & starboard, floundering in irons what!. :D :D

[Rik]

Frosty, you will need your little friend Masalai's help with this one. You will need more than piss and vinegar though to get here attention.

Your right though, if the price is right, she will over look everything else about you.

Masa, she will even let your perverted little self film it.

[masalai]

How fake can you get? Tatoo on pusy to give directions? on use. Spare hole in navel (hidden by hands). Artificially augmented tits. No nipples. Botox lips. Dumb blond. Artificial tan. Hair added to head. Shaved elsewhere to remove "Neandathal" look.

Reject model if ever I saw one. Maybe, if it was a plastic blow up may have some value amongst some of the socially deprived who need a car with phat tyres, bouncing shockies, loud exhausts, etc.... The sexually inadequate, to put in the seat beside themselves.

[Frosty]

Spot on Mas --good eye, probably a frigid lesbian too. Her hands are covering a cesarean scar that has been replaced with a zip.

Look at that silly "oh arent I loveely look all over her boat race" Shes probably one of those opinionated septics that cant open a milk carton.

I would'nt do it with a stolen dick. Horrible plastic tits too!!!!!

[Rik]

How fake can you get? Tatoo on pusy to give directions? on use. Spare hole in navel (hidden by hands). Artificially augmented tits. No nipples. Botox lips. Dumb blond. Artificial tan. Hair added to head. Shaved elsewhere to remove "Neandathal" look.

Reject model if ever I saw one. Maybe, if it was a plastic blow up may have some value amongst some of the socially deprived who need a car with phat tyres, bouncing shockies, loud exhausts, etc.... The sexually inadequate, to put in the seat beside themselves.

Yea, isn't it great! She likes girls too by the way, so that is a two for one deal that can't be passed up!:D

You two really are gay.

[masalai]

You wouldn't know gay if she was up you :D :D :D ?

[Frosty]

Hey Rik Ive got a Labrador you might want to go out with.

You mentioned she did a bit for money,--like how much did you pay last time?

I would think 2 dollar would be ample.

[masalai]

Year, but the Labrador may feel short changed & then them rent a crowd, bra burners at "don't be cruel to animals" would object on the grounds ric may have his feelings hurt.

[Frosty]

Looking at Riks girl freind we could perhaps hazzard a guess as to his age.

She looks about 4 ,---(thats dogy years)

Not mentaly of course that too easy, but how many times has the Earth revolved around the sun While Rik has been on the planet.

In other words. Rik you must be about 32!!! thats human years not dog years.

[Frosty]

Any way why are we talking about his bit of fluff. I wanted to see the barnacles growing on the rams of his drives ,---he seems to have wriggled out of that one. Well I mean he thought he had.

Posting picture of a half naked lady was a cheap shot . Lets see some photos of your dads boat Rik.

Its a bit low on the back end isnt it? geeez is it sinking. Obviously not meant to be a sea boat.

[Kay9]

Its Ron Barcardi's boat.

[masalai]

Ahhhh, I know that one, Always has a sign reading "Pist n broke"

[Rik]

Its Ron Barcardi's boat.

Ron has David Scott's Bacardi 36' Skater. Totally different boats. I didn't use a rudder or Mercury Drives. Rather I have Steerable Arneson Surface Drives.

Your right though, Zolack has a damn nice strip club. Good eye!

Frosty, as I see it, you need to start putting something up other than b.s. It appears you have a lot of people fooled into believing you know more than you do. What that is, no one seems to know or be able to produce.

You and your little friend masalai don't seem to like women either so I don't think you two are even on the right web site for your orientation.

Back to the subject of this thread. Jim, (Wiggler) you know what to use, and what is the best out drive out there on the market. Please don’t let the ignorance of the uneducated people affect your decisions. Call me and I’ll get you setup with the right drive for your application.

[masalai]

Rik, boats are meant to be plastic (yours anyway) not women. . . Yours?

We know where to find women who are genuine women. My wife is Indian of the warrior caste.

I could not show any interest in such artificiality as you presented. Probably has a high-pitched nasal voice with an affection of a southern twang

You still havn't posted the challenging image of "Arnesons in marina berth & not barnicled" - can't because it lives on a trailer, except for brief passes to the next refuel point

[Rik]

Sorry, but do you have a photo of a boat that has the barnacles on the Arnesons? In specific, the steering cylinders with damage that always fail according to Frosty?

Like I noted, enough of the b.s., time to show what you know.

What do you do for a living Masalai?

[Rik]

There is no question as to I am or what an Arneson Surface Drive is, rather the two people that are posting under a false identity need to prove something here rather than try to tear down someone's products with nothing more than idle time and old women gossip.

[Rik]

More of the same. Boats with Arneson's and no over whelming evidence of a problem that does not exist.

[masalai]

Can't afford to be retired so I am just a retread at the moment. Have been known to be involved in many career activities, current interest is enjoying being a "pontificating prick", but secretly designing my next career move - a boat for long range voyaging & community development in Melanesia (Solomon Islands/Vanuatu region)

Your toys look like sprinters to me I am after super marathon at 15 knots.

My question still is not answered, the exposed steering ram still presents problems if left at a mooring & gets barnicles (which it will)

The top left on the second series shows a scum line which would mean the entire steering ram is underwater at rest. No good for my purposes, also too many engines (six?) means too much fuel for me.

[masalai]

Enough already, which is your boat? I hope it is not the "Haywards houseboat"? that is almost like putting a couple of jet engines on the back of a Chinese Junk?

Jacquelins is about my vintage, but the apparent excess grunt I don't need (mine is old but still effective - hanging at the front between my legs)

All I can say is you appear to enjoy your toys, mine is a different path. Cheers

[Frosty]

I am beside myself with frustration . I can hardly think. Rik I ask you to show a picture of your drives --you show others. I ask you for the reason of looking at barnacle growth,--(which you say they dont grow on your drives) then you show me pictures of boats being re launched.

I have nothing else to think exept that you don't know anything but how to write cheques to a boat yard that has your boat hauled once a month and you don't know about it.

Ok Ok lets talk about brainless bimps with plastic tits That you call women,-- you seems to know a little bit more about them and were much funnier.

Do me a favour and google 'barnacle' please!!! Geeez lets start from the begining.

[Frosty]

Wait a minute --its coming to me now.

Rik is that you. I know who you are. I think.

Ille remember your surname soon, may take a while but it will come to me.

[Rik]

At first I thought it must be our English, but if you are British, you should have gotten it by now.

I am not the owner of all these boats, other than the silver one with the slut on it.

The others are customers of mines boats with Arneson Surface Drives on them ranging from small to large. All showing boats that are being used but not showing a problem which does not exist.

I do not have any photo of Barnacles destroying steering cylinders. As you can see from my customers boats, 99% of them are too large to be trailer queens so they spend full time in the salt water. I have yet to have a problem with steering cylinders failing due to barnacle growth. If there is a problem it is in the first time use as the seal was installed incorrectly. This is something that is taken care of as we support our products.

Typically, the cylinders are rebuilt at about the same time the drives are, several thousand hours of use after they were put into service.

If you have not gotten it yet, I do the sales and engineering for Arneson Surface Drives, and no I am not 4 years old, don't have a father, much less one with a boat to show you.

Enough of the childish attacks and fallacies as it does not show anyone deserving of respect.

[Rik]

Can't afford to be retired so I am just a retread at the moment. Have been known to be involved in many career activities, current interest is enjoying being a "pontificating prick", but secretly designing my next career move - a boat for long range voyaging & community development in Melanesia (Solomon Islands/Vanuatu region)

Your toys look like sprinters to me I am after super marathon at 15 knots.

My question still is not answered, the exposed steering ram still presents problems if left at a mooring & gets barnicles (which it will)

The top left on the second series shows a scum line which would mean the entire steering ram is underwater at rest. No good for my purposes, also too many engines (six?) means too much fuel for me.

That boat you refer to is a 4 engine "M SHIP" which is 80' X 40' ship with a displacement of 65 tons reaches speeds of 51 knots.

Most fun boat I've been involved with. Absolute blast to drive and be on.

I was just wondering if there was a web site that I could go on and spew my negative unsubstantiated view on products you make your living from.

As I have said, there is a way to prevent barnacles from growing on the steering cylinder shaft and it is very simple solution that is widely known and used.

Do some research on cylinder design and you will find it.

[Frosty]

Thats right you are the Rik at Arnesons.

I still cant remember your surname. You were wanting to supply me with a pair of your smaller models that had been overhauled, complete with trim motors.

Had I been aware of some (way) of keeping barnacles off rams I might have been more interested, as it is I spend a lot of time cleaning props which I still beleive you do too even though you have some sort of banacle deterent on the rams that I have yet to see.

I have Diamond backs, 4 blades 26x26 in bronze and will barely move the boat after 1 month.

Apparantly you turn up at anytime and scream across the bay with a bird on the top without any fouling difficulties ( the props not the bird)

I did look at Arnesons site to look for something about scraper seals.Perhaps you could give me an ERL.

Dont worry about the piss taking, think of it as a kind of initiation thing.

You did very well when we had a go at your girlfriend. Seems your more touchy about Arneson drives than you are about the girlfreind.

I sent you a picture of my boat 4 years ago. I remember you had some props that were suitable at the time also. I very nearly had Arnesons on the boat from you. But you said my boat wasnt suitable to surface drives and you could'nt guarantee success. I didnt ask you to guarantee anything. You were very helpfull at first, but then you seem to become bored with my enquiries and I with your vague answers. Bit like you are now with pictures of your boats drives and comments such as check it out and you will see. Check out where?

I guess you were too busy to deal with a " bull shitter spewing unsubstatiated veiws" sending you pictures of boats that were probably not his.

I enjoyed that,---- its not often that life lets you get back to those infurating sales men. My dislike for Arneson was attached to you. Nothing personal !!

I think Arnesons look great,-- and are very popular, just a shame I couldnt get some answers to help me to make the decision.

(This brings back memories) So for the 3rd or 4th time, can I have some information on these seals and where to look.

[Rik]

Thats right you are the Rik at Arnesons.

You did very well when we had a go at your girlfriend. Seems your more touchy about Arneson drives than you are about the girlfreind.

I sent you a picture of my boat 4 years ago. I remember you had some props that were suitable at the time also. I very nearly had Arnesons on the boat from you. But you said my boat wasnt suitable to surface drives and you could'nt guarantee success. I didnt ask you to guarantee anything. You were very helpfull at first, but then you seem to become bored with my enquiries and I with your vague answers. Bit like you are now with pictures of your boats drives and comments such as check it out and you will see. Check out where?


.

If you can afford her, she is ALL YOURS! :D Remember, regardless of what they look like, someone is already tired of their crap. She has since been replaced with a newer model. It's best to lease them than to buy.

As for the seals, look and review my post.

Remember, I had to search for yours. :D

Sounds like you need to use your boat more often to avoid the build up of marine growth. Did that bottom paint on your propellers cost you any speed?

You have semi displacement hull. Not the best for speed, but with the picture of your boat, it should be stable and good in the rougher sea conditions.

[redtech]

hay rik arnesons are good drives but i agree with frosty so how about some pics of the boats coming out of the water not going back in after repairs and not your freshwater disco bay boat
just because you may have or work for arneson doesn't mean that there the best surface drive all around some drives just tend to do better than others in applacation.
so how about ending the dick measuring arguement and answer the very first question asked here
remember if you ask people what they think you'll get more than one answer

[Rik]

Sorry, but I do not have any photos of what you are wanting to see.

Do you?

Have a better drive system, please post it.

Please enlighten all of us to your world and please leave your measuring lingo behind.

We can all throw stones, but nothing has any relevance without proof.

This thread by the way was what is the best surface drive for a marine diesel, not show me some photos of an Arneson Surface Drive with Barnacle damage to a steering cylinder.

[redtech]

This thread by the way was what is the best surface drive for a marine diesel, not show me some photos of an Arneson Surface Drive with Barnacle damage to a steering cylinder.[/QUOTE]
this is all that i was saying lets get back to options for the thread starter in your opinon what is the best drive for marine diesels and does this change by boat type, size, wieght, and power plant

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=Rik;178079, but nothing has any relevance without proof.

This thread by the way was what is the best surface drive for a marine diesel, not show me some photos of an Arneson Surface Drive with Barnacle damage to a steering cylinder.[/QUOTE]


I would like to know how you keep your drives clean of marine growth
and to know more about your self cleaning rams. Where can I find this information,-----Sigh .

[Rik]

This thread by the way was what is the best surface drive for a marine diesel, not show me some photos of an Arneson Surface Drive with Barnacle damage to a steering cylinder.
this is all that i was saying lets get back to options for the thread starter in your opinon what is the best drive for marine diesels and does this change by boat type, size, wieght, and power plant[/QUOTE]

There for a minute it sounded like something different. :eek:

We have 10 different drive sizes of various configurations. We try to cover all applications from small ( <200 hp diesel) to large (6,000 + hp diesel)

Yes and no. A displacement hull that is limited by design, which is designed for what the customer wants, has a different need and objection than a fast/faster/really fast plaining hull.

A cargo ship does not use a surface drive, but that is not what Jim, the starter of this thread was asking about.

A fast plaining hull with a surface drive with a diesel was the topic at hand. In this category, then Arneson has the needs covered with our product range.

[Rik]

I would like to know how you keep your drives clean of marine growth
and to know more about your self cleaning rams. Where can I find this information,-----Sigh .

The pictures show the bottom paint on the drive unit itself.

I already gave you the answer to the cylinders in an earlier post. DIG man DIG, you will find it if you look.

[Frosty]

The pictures show mostly clean boats being returned! From where ? a fresh water lake?

What paint do you use and how often? You cant paint the rams comon?

I have looked for 'Arneson rams'--have googled and been transfered to many web sites using your front. Where shall I dig??? I find nothing on your so called self cleaning rams.

It is you that is benefiting here not me, and as I see it, your not doing yourself or your company much good.

If you know where it is ----spill it!!!


You just can not and will not answer a simple question.

It would appear that Arneson are not suitable for constant emmersion in sea water as I suspect. and that most Arnesons are used in fresh water.

Unless Rik can put up some information and prove his theory that Arnesons don't suffer fouling problems then I will coninue to beleive that they do get growth just like any body else on the planet.

That would certainly run along with 100% of the usage that I have seen with Arnesons. Those rams, pipes and all those lovely shiny bits just could not hold up to commercial use in seawater.

I shall continue to believe along with others reading this that your claims are not reasonable and false.

I can only assume thay you are totally unfamiliar with sea water boats.

[Rik]

Frosty, look at post #16. The answer lies there. I am not here to design a cylinder for you or others. Buy an Arneson and see how we do it. Rather proof of a problem lies on the accuser. Can you show evidence of this problem? If not them please move on. I cannot show you a problem that I do not encounter.

As for salt water, where do you think all this large boats go? Have you ever seen thousands upon thousands boats on a local lake that are in the 60' + range with surface drives? I think not.

South Central FL, the Caribbean, the Mediterranean, the Middle East, ASIA!!, etc.. All have boats with Arneson Surface Drives. Even Australia there masa.

Unless you are telling me that there is magic water that only boats with Arnesons sit in around the world, then it is pretty obvious that the boats are kept in Salt Water and they are kept there full time. Do they have a truck in Asia that can tow a 88' Azimuth out of the water on a launch ramp? Lord knows the British never made a decent truck.

Why are you so stuck on a shinny propeller theory? Likewise, 90% of the boats with Arnesons have a NiBrial propeller and they are far from shinny.:?: Even the ones with S.S. propellers are mostly dull in finish.

Don't be a hater Frosty. As I have said before, time to put up or shut up. The burden of proof of your imaginary problem is on you.

[longliner45]

ok ok fellas,maybe I can shed some light on this issiue,,,we fished in the gulf of mexico ,,,,for years and years,,we used only simple bottom paint,( pettit) ,,good stuff,,the boat always kept moving ,once a year we pulled the boat out ,,to check for damage,,hitting,logs and debrei and such .no outstanding barnical growth ,,,we fished in all weather,,rain or shine,,we had volvo duoprops with a stering ram ,,no growth,,,,,,the ram was slightly out of the water,,,,moss grows not on a rolling stone,,as the shaft passes through the bushing or bearing or seal ,,it is cleaned off ,(,so much for the shaft question) as for the drives ,,I cant tell you squat,,,,,but moving parts gather no barnicals or anything,,,our props were alumininum,,,,,,,no growth there either ,,but we could change them out ,,we had speed props for traveling and tractor props for working heavy,,,,,storm comes up ,you put the speed props on and hauled ass,,,,as forest gump said ,,,,,( this is all I have to say bout that),,longliner

[Rik]

Longliner, you are blowing Frosty's hypothesis.

A rolling stone gather no moss..

[Frosty]

We need more smilies, there isnt one that fits.

I saw one once that was a little smilie and he was banging his head on a brick wall. Something like that would do right now!!.

Im so glad I didnt buy Arnesons Geeez, can you imagine trying to get a querie answered.

Did I or did I not ask what antifould he used?

Again I can only assume--- Arneson must have so much electrolisis from the Nibral, stainless and alluminium that the barnacles dont/cant go there.

Assume is all I can do????????

So Flexidrive with the Victory racing team won formula1 with the Soni designed flexidrive.

A strange looking rudder in so much as it is half the tunnel of the Levi drive and seems to have changable rudder blades.

Mmmm I could modify mine to do that. Infact I have wondered that the tunnels may encourage undesirable water forces through the tunnel where the propeller is doing its buisness.

But does have clean, smooth surfaces so important when trying to keep up maintenance and deter marine growth and barnacles.

[Rik]

Uh, King of shaves won the championship in 2007' with a pair of ASD8 drive units. And a lot less HP.

I sold the engines to the Donzi team, so I know what they make.

True, the Flexi drive, used in Powerboat P1 Class on a Donzi, which is a copy of the Arneson by Brunello Acampora's company, won the championship in 2006' while racing against a group of boats that were largely uncompetitive as proved in the 2007' season when two American boat companies went to Europe and demolished the fleet. (Fountain Powerboats and Outer limits Powerboats)

The tunnels do not move and there is only one rudder on that particular boat. Not a Levi hoop steering. Brunello is marketing the hoop steering on other models but I have yet to see one.

The flexi drive is not used on the Victory Racing Team, rather the Victory Racing Team uses an Arneson fixed for trimming only and incorporates a vertically trimable rudder. Pretty high tech piece.

Anti fouling paint you ask? Ask the end user. We do not recommend any particular brand as there are external factors involved in the decision making process. Like accessories on their boat. Not all things are compatible with the same bottom paint.

You sure ask a lot of questions but answer far fewer.

[masalai]

I thought the idea was to offer an answer based on your personal strengths/experiences, and submit questions to another when one would like to know something, from one who claims to be, or, should be, in the know.

A quick browse of public profiles/gallery should give an indication of area of interest etc. Some prefer anonymity? their business is their business. If to cast opinions it is then the anonymous opinion-maker becomes judge-able by anyone, if no other bio-information is posted, to their regret.

[Frosty]

This is the one the Flexi web site say did it. It doesnt look like an Arneson to me>

You say I ask a lot of questions but answer few ---Well what do you want to know?

Ive explained to you what barnacles are -hav'nt I?

[Rik]

That is a Victory design trim cylinder

Best look at an Arneson again. Opps. There is the ball, socket and thrust tube. Hmmmm... Who sales them the Arneson ball, socket and parts??? Hmmm.. Ponder to guess.

You never came forward with your drive unit, or anything that is better.

You have not showed the imaginary damage you have managed to drag this thread into, yet you are now changing your argument to a drive unit that is a copy of all things, an Arneson! But this time it the unit uses two steering cylinders that are exposed to the marine environment just like an Arneson.

You have not shown your imaginary and now mysterious Barnacle growth problem on an Arneson Surface Drive.

You have not shown any credentials that you and masa stake your claim to fame on.

I've said it far too many times here, so lets put it to rest as I am exhausted defending an imaginary problem that does not exist but you keep going on and on about.

This is boarding on childish behavior. Who did you call a 4 year old again?

Oh, you should like the flag on this boat.

[Rik]

I thought the idea was to offer an answer based on your personal strengths/experiences, and submit questions to another when one would like to know something, from one who claims to be, or, should be, in the know.

A quick browse of public profiles/gallery should give an indication of area of interest etc. Some prefer anonymity? their business is their business. If to cast opinions it is then the anonymous opinion-maker becomes judge-able by anyone, if no other bio-information is posted, to their regret.

True, but to throw stones and hide behind a false identity to protect yourself is a cowardly thing. If one is brave enough to start an attack, then an Honorable person would be man enough to man up.

[Frosty]

You never came forward with your drive unit, or anything that is better.

( I have never said I have anything better)



You have not shown your imaginary and now mysterious Barnacle growth problem on an Arneson Surface Drive.

(you want a picture of a barnacle on a drive?)

You have not shown any credentials that you and Masa stake your claim to fame on.
( neither Mas or I has made any kind of claim to fame)



This is boarding on childish behavior. Who did you call a 4 year old again?

( I said you were like an 8 year old)

Oh, you should like the flag on this boat.

(I don't do all that flag saluting stuff) ( sigh)

-------------------------------------------------------
Anyway whats these questions you want me to answer?

I would like to ask some technical questions about Arnesons,but im not sure you would be able to answer.

[Rik]

Your right Frosty, I probably could not answer your imaginary questions.

[Frosty]

No No-- your right Rik, you would not be able to answer the questions I would be asking.

--What the hell is an imaginary question?!!!!!!!!! Oh well.

I apologise the the original starter of this thread who must be thing what the hell happened?

Personally I would say that any surface drive is perfectly ok for a deisel as more gear reduction and slower speed is being used as from the early days when it was thought that high speed propellers was necessary.

I have deisels with 2.5 ratio.

The trick is to get a prop that is designed to drive the boat at the speed you want -then choose the engine and ratio to drive the prop at its designed speed and torque. Isnt that right Rik?

Many people fit an engine they got cheap and then ask for a prop to get them out of the sh1t. The propeller man wont like you very much.

[Pericles]

Something of interest, perhaps?

http://www.dbdmarine.com/CD-300-Marine-outdrive.htm

Pericles

[masalai]

Who is hiding??????????, you can email me or send a PM & I have outlined my current status openly. I have put my project up for scruitiny in user gallery, Who are You? Frosty had to guess and you have neither confirmed or denied.
You had no contact, no website, NO NOTHING Man up yourself.

[Steve H]

So now we get to the truth. Suggesting that Arneson dont have this problem,!!!!! Common Rik I new you were pulling my leg.

And all this time you scrape them off like every body else.

A bit more than once a year too eh Rik?

More like every time you use it or the seal will be ripped by the barnacles.

Surface props need to be clean ,--- even to a shiny surface to work well.


I think you have hitting the pipe too.

[Frosty]

Oh ? Please explain.

[Rik]

Steve, please ignore Frosty. He appears to be one of those people that gets his rocks off by starting trouble.

He has invented an imaginary problem that all Arneson hydraulics fail due to barnacle growth. Yet he has not produced any results or evidence of his imaginary problem.

Unfortunately, there is no helping some people in the world, despite our best efforts and I wish him luck.

Unless someone has something positive to contribute here, lets just let it die.

[masalai]

Rik the anonymous advocate has spoken tripe again? I am sure I, an ignorant ancient person understood the question posed to request "How do you keep barnacle growth off the bits PERMANENTLY immersed in the water?" I am considering surface drive and would like a sensible answer - not CRAP! and semantics.

[Frosty]

Oh No not again? Hey Mas ille bet you 15 points that Rik dosen't give the answer. He don't even get the question.

[westlawn5554X]

frosty... I think this Romanian girl is better for u , she waiting you at MEETIC err... wedding intro centre... best luck.

[westlawn5554X]

WOW... I really had this weird feeling gentlemen that we really need a beer... cuz I really run out of popcorn... Mmmm... maybe sushi is not a bad idea...

This of course still a drivel thread right?;)

[Rik]

Mas, I think Frosty is holding your hand here for you and therefore you really should look up to him.

But I cannot show what does not exist as a problem. Sorry I cannot give you want you are looking for if it does not exist.

Here is a bit of advice, if the theory does not prove true, maybe the theory is incorrect?

I keep writing this so that maybe it will sink in for you, but please, show your problem or let it go. I cannot show it, find it so I do not have to defend it.

Frosty, please translate for your friend, you started this in the first place.

[masalai]

I can't argue with denial...:D One day someone who cares to post may produce a photo of a boat's bum with barnacles & stuff growing happily on S/S shaft/screw or similar immersed part - before it is removed.

No accessible maintenance yards available around here..

[Frosty]

Ok lets do this another way. Rik Arnesons are so wonderful and fantastic , they dont seem to suffer from underwater growth that all other manufacturers do.

All other inferior drives need to be taken out and cleaned often, Can you please explain how Arneson has managed to do this?
Do you use very special stainless that has been treated to a special secret process.

[masalai]

As with most religiously fundamental believers, persuasion that a round ball is not a cube is verging on the impossible. :D

[westlawn5554X]

He... He... frosty... are u laying an entrapment?

[Frosty]

2 days now and still no answer ,I guess he does'nt know. Just be quite and smile, that the way to get round difficult questions I suppose.

Or say that my question was too stupid to deserve a response,--thats another way.

I still dot have an answer as to how the claim of 10% slip can be achieved and with what propeller.

Not much point in contacting Arneson direct as you get Rik on the line!!

[Volare]

Mr. Frosty, why you not ask your drive maker? I think they shold help you problem not? Did you buy anresin?

If this rik is who he say he is, I not understand why he come here and be treated poorly by you. It seem that people want to here learn but when a man come here that has knolege you try to run him away. I no undertand why the makers come to these internet. All people are expert so no need for real expert. We all pay price in end for you comments.

[Frosty]

Your quite right Volare, I should not ask him questions he can not answer.

I am sorry if my question ran expert away.

I don't have problem Just a discussion with expert would be nice.

The only problem I have is, ---well never mind.

[Pericles]

Frosty,

What's your opinion of the Seafury drives from NZ?

http://www.seafury.com/recreational.html

A Google search came up with a number of other manufacturers, other than Arneson

http://www.powervent.com/

http://www.pulsedrive.net/

http://www.q-spd.com/benefits.htm

http://zf-marine.com/surface_drives/index.cfm?&JSESSIONID=f030ea8c0a9624804d9e7a6251a3667743c3&CFApp=1

http://www.godevil.com/Surface_Drive_Release.html

Then of course, I found this! :D

http://www.rbbi.com/links/drives/surfacedrive.htm

Pericles

[Pericles]

Sometime ago there was a question about contra rotating shaft drive duo props.

http://www.duodrive.co.uk/preformance_engineering.htm seem to offer this facility.

"The Duodrive system brings significant efficiency improvements. Counter-rotating propellers eliminate waste. In this type of installation, two propellers are positioned one immediately ahead of the other on the same shaft line, but rotating in opposite directions. The rotational energy imparted to the water by the forward of the two propellers is cancelled out by the opposite rotation of the rearward propeller. The slipstream from counter-rotating propellers is almost smooth and straight, with little twist. When a single propeller accelerates water into itself from ahead and expels it astern, it generates thrust like a jet engine. Unfortunately, a significant percentage of the power delivered to the propeller also goes into twisting the water around, creating the helically-shaped propeller wake. This energy is exhausted and does nothing in providing propulsion, or drive; it is, simply, wasted. Duodrive’s concept of counter-rotating propellers aims at dramatically reducing this waster effect and is expected to be 15 to 40 per cent, dependant upon configuration, more efficient than standard, single propeller sets. This all helps to provide the necessary thrust to achieve the 30-knot holy grail that today’s market demands.

The Duodrive product is a self-contained, maintainable sealed mechanism initially intended for the marine leisure industry. It is designed to slot in between a recipient craft’s gearbox output shaft and its driveshaft through-hull gland. After substituting the recipient craft’s driveshaft with a shorter dual shaft arrangement, the Duodrive system slots into place.

Benefits resulting from the introduction of this new technology are significantly increased efficiencies through performance gains, reduced operating costs and environment improvements."

Comments please?


Pericles

[Frosty]

Shall I answer the first question first, I normally prefer the 3rd question first followed by the 2nd question last or further away from the middle as possible.

I know the Seafury well I use their props, which is a diamond back. Strange really when that is a Levy patent. those props develop in my case 28% slip.

The shaft counter rotation props? Dunno!! I am concerened with surface propulsion.

By the way surface propulsion can be generated without a drive system.

When you by a conventional shaft system do you look for a manufacturer?

Just glancing through the urls I am well aware of them,--Ive never owned one --Why?

" Go devil" is a fishermans mud skipper.

If you ever try to contact these people other than Seafury and possible Pulse drive or Zf there is no reply.
DB is another one that seems to have been posted on the internet and forgotten about.

I emailed Flexitab a few days go,----zilch.

[Volare]

Mr. Frosty good luck with you approache for answeres.

[masalai]

Volare, Welcome to boatdesign.net? You have jumped in "where angels fear to tread". Therefore you have seen a bit of the seamier side of life here where a recalcitrant, called Rik seems to be in denial? I don't know any-more. I would like the information that Frosty sought from Rik - That is, What are the specifics of the steering-ram that effectively wipe off barnacle growth in vessels permanently in the water where that ram is submerged. I have only read denial & implausible refutation of the existence of any problem.???? This has been carried on over three different threads.

When someone claims "no problem" it is appropriate that that claim is supported by detail on how it is done - particularly when experience shows there is a barnacle growth problem on similar materials (stainless steel hydraulic rams permanently immersed in the ocean) elsewhere in the marine environment.

[Frosty]

I heard the other day from a reliable source that the police here do not like the Arnesons. They say that they are easily recognized 20 miles away by the rooster tail. I have to admit that It catches my eye when I see one over the bay. If its got a rooster its the police.

The next time I see one in the marina im going to ask him about marine growth on the drive , I cant wait ,--watch this space.

[Steve H]

Frosty, Masalai,

I have been doing my best to see things from your prospective. So far it has been tough. I think if Rik told you that the sun was coming up in the morning you would call him a liar.

Steve

[masalai]

If he said at his command - - yes........

The question still sits unanswered..... Please explain the function on the hydraulic rams, which "remove" (Rik denies they grow on the shafts) the barnacle growth when those parts are normally below the waterline on boats PERMANENTLY kept in salt (ocean as opposed to mix of brackish and or fresh, as in tidal flushing.) water - either on a swing mooring or pen in a marina or on a pick at an overnight stop.

A simple and perfectly valid question that is denied/ignored, responded with attacks or "Who Are You" questions....... Is that too difficult to answer? The invective is to be expected (from me), when a person who should know and be in a position to give reasoned and technical information refuses or otherwise does not????

I am looking for solutions to meet my own concerns as to how & what to power with when operating in remote areas of Melanesia where hull liftout facilities don't exist....

[Volare]

Mr. Masalai I read him post and I see him answer to question and he sayes they have design different. I see him answer in post and I see you no accept answer. We non see problem with anresin in Italy. Possbly diffent water.

[masalai]

I have NO problems with the drive - per se, - I don't understand his explanation on removing barnacles???? after they settle on the metal of the ram that moves inside the hydraulic cylinder. They (barnacles) are not readily removed - intoto - (every particle of calcium abrasive material or whatever it is that they use to hold fast - it is abrasive & can reduce seals/rings or other mechanisms used inside the hydraulic cylinders to get the cylinders/pistons to function without leaking the hydraulic fluids. It does happen. I have seen the leakage which usually ended up (not in surface drives but other mechanisms relating to rudder actuation) being moved to above waterlines.... Screw shafts rotate and are usually sealed elsewhere and do not have to contain high pressures in hydraulic actuation using rams.

My issue is how does one resolve those issues relating to hydraulic ram actuation which is in-&-out within a cylinder, not round & round.... Mentioning a shear ring is not enough the fine particles left are the problem over time.

[Frosty]

This is unbeleivable. Mas must and I must have asked this question 10 or more times now.

I refuse to believe that the participants of this thread are really confused at the question, no one can be this dim I think your having a laugh.

Mr Volaire if you understood the answer to the question then please explain to me because I am a bit dim also, I did'nt get it.
Just to remind (again) how do Arneson drives manage to have "no" marine growth as claimed by Rik?

Geeeez I can hear you all laughing I cant believe I am falling for this, day after day.

[Steve H]

I have NO problems with the drive - per se, - I don't understand his explanation on removing barnacles???? after they settle on the metal of the ram that moves inside the hydraulic cylinder. They (barnacles) are not readily removed - intoto - (every particle of calcium abrasive material or whatever it is that they use to hold fast - it is abrasive & can reduce seals/rings or other mechanisms used inside the hydraulic cylinders to get the cylinders/pistons to function without leaking the hydraulic fluids. It does happen. I have seen the leakage which usually ended up (not in surface drives but other mechanisms relating to rudder actuation) being moved to above waterlines.... Screw shafts rotate and are usually sealed elsewhere and do not have to contain high pressures in hydraulic actuation using rams.

My issue is how does one resolve those issues relating to hydraulic ram actuation which is in-&-out within a cylinder, not round & round.... Mentioning a shear ring is not enough the fine particles left are the problem over time.


I was wreck diving in Truck Lagoon a few years back. I vividly remember a Japanese aircraft that was lying inverted exposing the landing gear in about 30 feet of water. The oleo struts were still clean and shiny (oleo struts are very much like hydraulic rams) Not one barnacle. This plane had been in salt water for over 60 years.
I was a sport fishing guide in Alaska for several summers. The barnacles up there are nasty. Yet I really don't remember any significant seal problems on our Merc drives (I do admit it was a long long time ago) These boats were left in the water all season.

I am just relating my personal experiance with the question at hand. Not interjecting off topic gibberish. Like the police don't like Arnesons because of the rooster tails :rolleyes: Jeesh

By the way, rooster tails are not exclusive. This video wes taken about 6 years ago showing my boat at cruise with fixed surface drives before the Arnesons were installed. Hellacious rooster!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QIno_IM0Y-s

[longliner45]

if there is fresh water content in this lagoon ,,you wont have barnicals,,,,just a thought.longliner

[Volare]

Mr. Frosty I see you approache non still work. Like Mr. Steve H say "interjecting off topic gibberish" I not knowe why you say when you have surface drive. It non "rooster tail"? I think you have rooster tail if you have surface drive no? Why only anresin? Why no Levi? Why no Sea Fury? Why no Zf? Why no Frosty?

[masalai]

I no speak Italian, Can't be bothered, By-by - all yours now...

[Frosty]

The Malaysian police that travel the Malacca straits do not like Arnesons because of the rooster tail.

In the bright sunshine and even a moonlit night the rooster tail can be seen miles away as no one else has them around here it is pretty obvious to smugglers and other undesirables that the police are coming.

There,-- I can't get it any more simple,-- jeesh

I dont think Arnesons rams are as deep as 30 feet Steve, and as for rooster tails if you new what caused them you would know that different drives don't have them.


Mas,-- hang on Im coming with you, start the engine quick lets get out of here before any more,------ experts turn up.

[masalai]

Thank you Steve H, any ideas as to why no growth???? kinda puzzling..... All I can think of is that the hydraulic fluid is stickey (stops in the metal) and is toxic to much marine growth. A new antifoul coat chemical!!!!!!

Good point Longie, The quest is still ON?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Steve H]

Thank you Steve H, any ideas as to why no growth???? kinda puzzling..... All I can think of is that the hydraulic fluid is stickey (stops in the metal) and is toxic to much marine growth. A new antifoul coat chemical!!!!!!

Good point Longie, The quest is still ON?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


I really don't know. I am not an authority of any kind on this topic other than my personal observations and experiances owning, operating and servicing the Arneson drive. I am starting to believe that this is a very minor issue with Arnesons if it is a issue at all. I do know that the rubber boot that covers the ball and socket is not meant to be water tight. It is strictly used to keep marine growth from growing on the ball section and then tearing out the o ring seal. I'm sure you could buy some rubber covers for the hydraulic rams that would serve the same purpose. I have purchased small ones for the drive and tab indicator cables that are under the water line and they seem to last quite a while.

The aircraft was in Truck Island Lagoon, ( Chuuk if you are a local) no fresh water near by. Very warm salt water in the mid 80's.

Steve

[Volare]

Mr. Frosty I non understand why you non answer and you say "if you new what caused them you would know that different drives don't have them" why your special? why no rooster from Frosty drive? you non answer lot

[Frosty]

Some drives Arneson and Zf for instance are movable, they steer and trim. There are more drives fall into this catagory.

Other drives such as Levi, Flexidrive have a tunnel rudder over the top of the propeller re-directing the rooster tail.

[Steve H]

Remember also that all that water going up helps push the stern down helping with bow lift at higher speeds. Lack of bow lift is a problem that all surface drives suffer from.
When I installed the Arnesons I used the splash gaurds over the prop trying to tame the rooster some. Didn't seem to help much. I have since taken them off. Arneson doesn't use them anymore anyway. I have since had a larger swim step made. Now I can finally see behind me. I do not have the bow lift I used to, but it is not a problem unless I am WOT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ekbppBwyA&feature=related

Here is the view from inside the boat while at cruise power with the old drives.

[Volare]

Mr. Buzi do not move he make big rooster so I non think moving drive make rooster. Surface drive make rooster.

I like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUYecw-bBQU&feature=related

[westlawn5554X]

I remember someone say using youtube is very unscientific... it would be interesting if data or information instead is submitted...

[masalai]

Don't worry westie, nothing too intellectual - just boats doing a pass for the home video camera. Check the others - more of the same.... Some with big rooster tails (singing "cock a doodle do" and others seeming to say "any cock will doo")

The Levi style does not produce such a "mark" for those pirates 'et al' to see
if they are hiding from police etc..... The inverted U rudder assembly...

[Volare]

Me read me search me find http://powerboatp1.com/images/videoclips/2007Season/GrandPrixofMalta.html

Mr. Frosty say flexidrive is a levi drive so i search and finde this OSG boat with flexi drive/levi drive big rooster now non undestand you comments

[Steve H]

Don't worry westie, nothing too intellectual - just boats doing a pass for the home video camera. Check the others - more of the same.... Some with big rooster tails (singing "cock a doodle do" and others seeming to say "any cock will doo")

The Levi style does not produce such a "mark" for those pirates 'et al' to see
if they are hiding from police etc..... The inverted U rudder assembly...

And your point?

[Volare]

Mr. Masalai i no understand you say rooster is bad but police not want to see rooster on smuggler no? i think job be easier no? with modern radar police know you at before them see you. Rooster no problem for police in Italy it let the bad guy know who comin

[masalai]

Ask westie, I hope he is enjoying the joke.

Read the other (sensible thread) on surface drives for reference point

Driveling in drivel thread where this is acceptable as nothing of value to me to learn here

[Steve H]

Ask westie, I hope he is enjoying the joke.

Read the other (sensible thread) on surface drives for reference point

Driveling in drivel thread where this is acceptable as nothing of value to me to learn here

Then why do you keep coming back?

Most of the drivel has came from you.

Most of your replys have been biased and insulting. I think this thread should just die. But I doubt that you can control yourself enough to let that happen.

Steve H

[westlawn5554X]

Ask westie, I hope he is enjoying the joke.

Read the other (sensible thread) on surface drives for reference point

Driveling in drivel thread where this is acceptable as nothing of value to me to learn here

err... masalai pls do not say that... someone in the forum might think u are from the gay legue... would put bad light upon me...:D

[CaptPKilbride]

I have NO problems with the drive - per se, - I don't understand his explanation on removing barnacles???? after they settle on the metal of the ram that moves inside the hydraulic cylinder. They (barnacles) are not readily removed - intoto - (every particle of calcium abrasive material or whatever it is that they use to hold fast - it is abrasive & can reduce seals/rings or other mechanisms used inside the hydraulic cylinders to get the cylinders/pistons to function without leaking the hydraulic fluids. It does happen. I have seen the leakage which usually ended up (not in surface drives but other mechanisms relating to rudder actuation) being moved to above waterlines.... Screw shafts rotate and are usually sealed elsewhere and do not have to contain high pressures in hydraulic actuation using rams.

My issue is how does one resolve those issues relating to hydraulic ram actuation which is in-&-out within a cylinder, not round & round.... Mentioning a shear ring is not enough the fine particles left are the problem over time.
In the Arneson Drive owner's manual I have, it is reccomended to fully raise the drives to prevent any fouling of the trim cylinder pistons. Then, on a regular basis, turn the helm lock to lock, which will prevent fouling of the steering cylinder pistons.

OBVIOUSLY, the more severe your fouling conditions, the more frequently you should cycle the steering cylindersto prevent a barnacle larva attaching to the piston and getting it's start in life.

In 17 years of running a yacht with Arneson drives, in many varied climes, the only barnacle issues I have had were with build-up on the flexible rubber boot which covers the thrust ball and socket, and growth on the aeroquip hydraulic lines from the transom to the cylinder.

I have met Rik Wimp, and had several email exchanges with him when specing out new drives, and have always found him to be very knowledgeable, and very helpful as well.

I can only imagine that someone who has said he wasn't helpful may have discovered that Mr. Wimp does not suffer fools lightly, which is evident in his postings here.

With that said, there are several different option out there for someone looking for Arneson Drives. I am only familiar intimately with the Arneson Drives, and have found their only drawback to be noise. If I were building a fast yacht today and was not hypersensitive to noise and vibration, I would use the Arneson drives. If noise and vibration were high priorities, then the natural choice would be waterjets.

[Rik]

This should just die if they let it.

I try to help those that want the help and in return its good for business. But for some people there is never going to be a win win situation.

For those its best they go on their own journey and find their answers through their own hard work instead of mine.

[masalai]

Thank you Captain, An acceptable answer at last. Good bye......

[Frosty]

Yup thats just about clears that up ,---but wait there are two remaining questions, why could'nt Mr Wimp submit that, and you say vibration and noise?

I did talk to a capt of a 60+ foot Pershing in Thailand and he said that the owner would trim up for max speed with a big rooster tail and he said that the whole boat would vibrate. I wonder whats making the noise and vibration?

Dont go away Capt Bride your conversation is easy and rewarding.

[CaptPKilbride]

I wonder whats making the noise and vibration?


Blade slap.

And, the propeller is not fully submerged, it is directly at the air/sea interface.

[masalai]

Does your surface drive do that Frosty?

[Volare]

No one believ you believ him if he tell you I still no underatand you no rooster

[Frosty]

Here comes the old argument of fixed over trimable. It is not possible to trim a boat with the surface trimable system, your not altering the angle of the prop ( tiny bit) but altering the angle of shaft and the height of the prop.

If you want to bring the bow up you change the prop for a higher rake.

There is only ONE postion for a surface prop and that is the centre of the prop in the water.

I dont think a Pershing would have a 3 blader infact this had a 4.

The Flexidrive pictures on their web site shows a overlap blades like that of a submarine meaning slap is impossible. I just forget the name of the prop.

No Mas mine does not vibrate infact one of the best features of my system is total vibration free. I call it a system but its just a prop half way in the water.

[Volare]

Mr Frosty you shoulde make you surface drive and sell lot. I non understand you but you contridick yurself with your writings. If trimable not good why everyone want to copy anrsin? sound more like those cannot copy for patint so they excuse they are more bester

[Frosty]

Ive never seen an Arneson copy , they are too complicated and it doesnt need to be.

Its simplicity itself. It s the propeller that is the surface bit. Trouble is you cant make money out of simplicity.

[Volare]

you exampel of "Flexidrive" are exact copy of anrsin. it grow from agremente with anrsin. same trim ball same socket same anrsin desinge

[Frosty]

There is three Flexidrive designs.


Come on somebody is having a laugh, no one can spell this badly.

The Roman alphabet is where English originated f-fs sake.

[Volare]

yes three model but no propeller look like it. must be artist propeller. still two of three are anrsin. with hoop or no hoop there is rooster. maybe you to slow for rooster

[Pericles]

Volare,

Are you Dean Martin reincarnated?

Pericles

[Volare]

he no me

[Frosty]

Deans dead?? What did they do with the horse?

[brunello]

Uh, King of shaves won the championship in 2007' with a pair of ASD8 drive units. And a lot less HP.

I sold the engines to the Donzi team, so I know what they make.

True, the Flexi drive, used in Powerboat P1 Class on a Donzi, which is a copy of the Arneson by Brunello Acampora's company, won the championship in 2006' while racing against a group of boats that were largely uncompetitive as proved in the 2007' season when two American boat companies went to Europe and demolished the fleet. (Fountain Powerboats and Outer limits Powerboats)

The tunnels do not move and there is only one rudder on that particular boat. Not a Levi hoop steering. Brunello is marketing the hoop steering on other models but I have yet to see one.

The flexi drive is not used on the Victory Racing Team, rather the Victory Racing Team uses an Arneson fixed for trimming only and incorporates a vertically trimable rudder. Pretty high tech piece.

Anti fouling paint you ask? Ask the end user. We do not recommend any particular brand as there are external factors involved in the decision making process. Like accessories on their boat. Not all things are compatible with the same bottom paint.

You sure ask a lot of questions but answer far fewer.


Rik,

I am amazed by your attitude towards myself, Victory Design and Flexitab. If you feel that we are infringing any of your rights, or those of the company you are working for, then please do act legally against us.

On the other hand, should you simply have ever heard from myself, Victory Design or Flexitab a single negative comment on Arneson’s drives, or yourself, please report them to me, so that I can clarify.

I hope you can understand that similar statements are not only unacceptable, but false. In fact:

1) Quoted from your text…” with a pair of ASD8 drive units. And a lot less HP. I sold the engines to the Donzi team, so I know what they make….” Rik, even if you had really sold the engines to the OSG Donzi team in 2006, which is at least a misleading statement; even if you really knew the actual horsepower installed by both OSG and King of Shaves, which is in any case quite impossible, as you too very well know. Well, even then, you know that the rules of P1 - and in fact performance boats – are based on power to weight ratio, and for sure the old OSG Donzi was a far heavier boat than the brand new Fountain of 2006, so that the power of the engine alone is a ‘political’ argument, not a valid technical one. Please note: this just to show the technical nonsense of your statement in the context.

2) Quoted from your text…”… the Flexi drive, used in Powerboat P1 Class on a Donzi, which is a copy of the Arneson by Brunello Acampora's company…” Now it is embarrassing that a professional engineer, as you are, should make this kind of statements. The Flexitab ‘Speed’ drive is not a copy of the Arneson drive. Victory Design and Flexitab have never, to my knowledge, copied Arneson. In fact, given the physical principle of about half prop in the water which is not, as far as I know, exclusive to Arneson, nor to any other semi submerged drive system, and limiting ourselves to fixed pitch propeller drives, there are three main categories of drives a) with fixed propeller and independent rudder (for example, Levi Drives and many others); b) with adjustable trim and independent rudder (for example, Flexitab “Speed” and “Power”); c) with adjustable trim, plus steering accomplished by a complete rotation, p & s, of the drive and a built-in skeg, normally ahead of the prop and integrally connected to the lower face of the thrust tube (Arneson by Twin Disk, but also Sea-Rex and Mini-Rex from ZF, Jolly Drive, SDS, Top System; and in fact also many surface Z drives like Mercury or Weissman). Now, considering that Victory Design and Flexitab have never designed a drive which falls into your category (c) since: we have never designed a drive where the propeller moves sideways; we have never designed a drive with a rudder or skeg connected to the thrust tube; we have never designed a drive with a rudder or skeg ahead of the propeller. Now may I ask, besides thousands of other considerations, how can you state that the Flexidrive Speed as installed on the OSG Donzi in 2006, was a copy of an Arneson? Based perhaps on the outside look of a thrust tube or the shape of a transom thrust unit? Well please then have a look at Sea-Rex and Mini-Rex from ZF, Jolly Drive, SDS, Top System and so forth. Do you have anything personal against Flexitab or myself? Technically and personally speaking, I cannot understand your attitude.

3) Quoted from your text…” …The tunnels do not move and there is only one rudder…Brunello is marketing the hoop steering on other models but I have yet to see one…” yes correct, the steering hoop was on the Power and Energy line of drives, we made quite a few and yes it was not a Levi hoop. We made several applications and the drives were on display at Genoa, Viareggio and Amsterdam shows. Our new Power drives, tested with success and displayed in Genoa 2008, do not have a movable hoop any more, but a fixed tunnel in similar fashion to the tunnels fitted onto our Speed drive of OSG Donzi, which won in 2006 (fighting hard against a very competitive Kerakoll by FB Design, amongst others). So, what is the point: we do not use Levi nor Arneson propulsion or steering principles. Is this compatible with everybody’s else ego in the SD world?

4) Quoted from your text…” …The flexi drive is not used on the Victory Racing Team, rather the Victory Racing Team uses an Arneson fixed for trimming only and incorporates a vertically trimable rudder…”. This is a totally misleading statement, since Flexitab has supplied directly and for many years the Victory Team UAE. The driveline you refer to, have been supplied by BPM, not by Arneson, as most Class 1 applications. Flexitab has almost invariably supplied the Victory Team and indeed almost every other single Class 1 team – including the so many times world champion Steve Curtis - with all the other drive system component, including the patented V-Mec trim pistons, the world wide copied VDD single steering system and the exclusive (1990, for your knowledge) composite flexible tunnel centre tab which granted 8 to 9 MPH to many cats. This, besides flush water intakes and too many other components which are outside the scope of this reply. The equipment you speak about was originally installed only onboard one of the two Victory Team boats and always with BPM mechanical drive lines. Could it be done with Arneson’s mechanical components as well? Probably yes since, to my knowledge, Arneson’s are mechanically very good: anyway also BPM machining of that thrust tube from a billet, the heat treatment and machining of the shaft, the custom lengths available and so forth, are very good. But if you are trying to say that Arneson’s philosophy is, and always was, to use a fixed drive, only trimmable and with a rudder aft, well than you are denying the basic principle of an Arneson. This concept (rudder behind), in modern racing times, belongs to Sonny Levi and his Step Drive patent (look at Arcidiavolo, Drago, Dart and so many others, please). Sonny dislikes even trimming the prop up and down, I disagree on that, but this is another story. If you say that Flexitab equipment is not used in the Victory Team UAE drive line, you are simply lying. And another thing: Victory Design is the design company that I founded 20 years ago, so that when you say that a trim cylinder fitted on a Victory Team boat is “not Flexitab but Victory Design”, you might be misleading again: all Flexitab equipment is designed by my design company, i.e. Victory Design, in Italy, not by the UAE Victory Team.

Finally, I hope you will refrain from further attacking, with straightforward lies, people and companies whose only fault is that of working on the same subject, with perhaps slightly different ideas. Your behaviour does not stand up to Arneson’s solid and respected reputation, built over several efforts. This way, Volvo and Mercruiser will eventually win again the market game and let the other play "powerboat racing".

Regards,

Brunello Acampora

[masalai]

Thank you Brunello....

[brunello]

you exampel of "Flexidrive" are exact copy of anrsin. it grow from agremente with anrsin. same trim ball same socket same anrsin desinge

Please supply your full details if you wish to be sued for your false statements.

Regards,

Brunello Acampora
Flexitab srl

[big-boss]

Brunello Acampora
Have you lost your mind? Hope the "essay" you wrote makes you feel real good- because it is crap. I also hope you get your wish and stay in court the rest of your "sue me" life. I am an engineer and have a law degree- that is how I stay in the construction business. You did not read the thread nor the comments-you just wanted to get mad. Ya they do all look alike, sorry. I am sure there are enough changes to keep your butt out of court though.
I have my second set of arnesons- these are going on a 1970 Uniflite Express with two small diesels and Rik has been a prince of a fella with my weird project.

[brunello]

Brunello Acampora
Have you lost your mind? Hope the "essay" you wrote makes you feel real good- because it is crap. I also hope you get your wish and stay in court the rest of your "sue me" life. I am an engineer and have a law degree- that is how I stay in the construction business. You did not read the thread nor the comments-you just wanted to get mad. Ya they do all look alike, sorry. I am sure there are enough changes to keep your butt out of court though.
I have my second set of arnesons- these are going on a 1970 Uniflite Express with two small diesels and Rik has been a prince of a fella with my weird project.

“Big Boss”,

Are you really sure it is us getting mad?
If there was any crap in my message, I apologise and await for somebody to explain what and why was crap.
I shall try to explain better. Please, read carefully.
Flexitab drives cannot be described as a copy of an Arneson, unless one is blind, because: a) they did never-never use prop steering and b) never had a steering fin ahead, forward of the prop – unlike Arneson and many other drives on the market (that, unlike Flexidrive, really do look, very much, like copies of Arnesons). Also, c) we always (not just seldom) used rooster tail control surfaces (shrouded rudders or equivalent means). Our drives, especially the pleasure and commercial ones, have a totally different “prop diameter to length of drive ratio” (they are short and with big diameter props), affecting mechanical issues like gear ratio selection (we tend to turn slower than most other makers) and consequently torque and inner mechanical design of the drive. Do you really think that all these changes, amongst others, are made simply to “… keep one’s butt out of court…”? Do you know our products and can you think that there might be genuine, different ideas? Are you really sure that you and Rik - let alone "Volare"- are not confusing us with somebody else?

You are rightly upset by the rising tone of the answers, but you are also not quite getting to the point: Flexitab, nor myself, has nothing, and never had anything against Arnesons: infact we think they are a good product and never attacked Arneson nor Rik in any way. Also, we have no reason to believe that he should not be the great fellow that you state. Yes, we may have some different ideas about drive design, but this should not become a personal issue – I believe and try to encourage. This is exactly the reason for us being so surprised and upset about Rik’s misleading statements about myself and Flexitab, within this thread. Anybody can loose his mind for a moment and I do not believe it was us. Please read again carefully who is attacking who, and who is simply and strongly defending a crystal clear company and personal reputation.

Regards,

Brunello Acampora

[big-boss]

Good.

[LostInBoston]

Brunello-
Would it be possible for you to tell me what the approx price is for a S1000 Flexidrive speed?
I am a graduate naval architect student and I will be assisting the prof in a junior design class this fall where we will be designing an offshore race boat.
Thank you

[brunello]

I have told Sara at Flexitab's to help you with your request, do give her a call! Regards, Brunello